Talon Game

Refractory Studios

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#33 2014-01-06 08:52:04

Spaz
Rookie Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-01-05
Posts: 3
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

Scott wrote:
Spaz wrote:

I built those levels down to the inth detail... factoring in chording speeds, firing rates, weapon frequency, weapon respawn rates, and other myriad things.

And I thought I was obsessive. tongue  Respect.

I used to sleep by my computer most every evening. I'd sit on Kali, play levels I was working on with friends, and slowly tweak them. Obsessive isn't even the word. Descent was my life back in the day. I was just fortunate enough to befriend Bryan Aamot and become the sole beta tester for DLB/DMB... which allowed me to communicate with him daily on my preferences on designing his beautiful software for building levels. Between Descent, Kali, and DMB I had almost no life.


Scott wrote:

Anyway, welcome, Spaz! I'm sorry you were brought here by an issue which must feel like a bit of a burden by now, and I'm sorry you won't have more time to spend here. Still, good of you to drop by. smile

I don't necessarily feel that its a burden. Its an honor honestly. I never thought my levels would become what they have. I was just having fun and finding a creative outlet. They took on a life of their own. I feel truly honored to have people hold them in such high regard. Honestly, now that I'm here... I'm sort of interested in Talon. I'll likely pick up a copy soon and kick it around. I don't normally have much time to play... but since its the off season in Yosemite I am not working or in the mountains as often... maybe I'll find some time this off season to play a bit. We'll see.

Regardless, thanks to everyone for the warm welcome... and for the understanding. Truly. It means a tremendous amount to me.

Banning Lyon / Spaz

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#34 2014-01-06 14:50:54

Red_Barchetta
Rookie Member
From: Miami, Fl. USA
Registered: 2013-12-24
Posts: 21
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

Not sure we have ever met in the tunnels (possibly), but I am sure I have hosted some of your work.

Thank you, and all the other map builders out there that have kept D3 alive for so many years. And here is to all the future designers that will help with the current and future projects.

Red Barchetta, D3 Team NuB


Red's Descent 3 Site
D1, D2 & D3 map downloads. Hosting USA South East Server.

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#35 2014-01-06 18:29:21

{NW}Rhino
Member
Registered: 2013-12-06
Posts: 26

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

Wow, *the* spaz.  can I have your autograph? wink Minerva 3 is my favorite map in any of the Descent series...Min3 in Descent 2 (and Descent in general, but on Kahn, not Kali) was at least half of my 14-16 year old existence.  I also remember reading the text files associated with them, and about the tough times you had back then, and feeling for you sad  It's really cool to see you  here on the forums.  Those levels mean a lot to me, and represent a ton of fun had.  Much respect.

Edited  saw you're also a rock climber on your facebook - respect x2 wink  Added you

Last edited by {NW}Rhino (2014-01-06 18:51:59)

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#36 2014-01-06 21:56:44

DelCio
Rookie Member
From: Tampa FL
Registered: 2014-01-04
Posts: 3
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

I can totally understand the feeling that they should be left alone, but have to correct a misconception. Levels created for Descent are not anyone's property (Except the ones that were authorized for sale by Interplay). Whether your made them, or played them time was put in. Being one of the old Kali St Louis guys from the NY crew I without question can say that I spent more time playing your levels than you did making them. Hell I went all over the country for years playing them, we saw an played each other countless times.

Honestly it's kinda arrogant to think that the time you spent making them is worth more than mine (or anyone's) time they spent enjoying them. Descent was a unique game with a unique style that from Descent 2 until this new wonderful game hasn't been paralleled. Talon is a new game that needs new levels and needs players. Having your levels would attract new players hands down. Descentile forwarded me the link to the demo and the 1st thing that came to mind was, man I wish Peart, Kiln, Xciter, Baywatch, and all the other players were on this and we were playing IO... I'm pretty sure all the players that came after us, and the players of D3 were thinking something similar, about their crew and their favorite levels. If you don't want to make levels for this game to continue your legacy that's fine, but to jump on here to tell us "their mine, do not use, x,y,z" is just nonsense.

Sorry if that comes off cold, but I have high hopes for this game. My best gaming experiences were the 95-01 D1/D2 Kali & LAN years. This is the only thing that has come close since then.
DelCio

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#37 2014-01-06 22:28:59

Scott
Refractory Studios
Registered: 2012-08-07
Posts: 437
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

First of all, let's be very careful here. This is in fact a touchy subject, and one in which many people feel an emotional investment. This line of discussion has the potential to become heated and inflammatory, and I do not want to see that happen.

Now I shall work on the rest of this post...


Or I could get called away by a crying baby to play "guess what's bothering me now", where contestants must correctly identify and correct the mystery sequence of problems and pains while enduring ear-splitting wails. It's a fun game. hmm

Crap. I was wrong again. Excuse me...

Last edited by Scott (2014-01-06 23:30:59)

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#38 2014-01-06 23:06:29

sdfgeoff
Beta Tester
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 102
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

Just before Scott posts (sorry)

First of all, let's be very careful here. This is in fact a touchy subject, and one in which many people feel an emotional investment. This line of discussion has the potential to become heated and inflammatory, and I do not want to see that happen.

Indeed, hence the warning in the thread post. I do not want this to become a locked topic, as I think it is one that needs addressing. So if people could remember that what they are voicing here is opinions, and people are entitled to have different ones.

Levels created for Descent are not anyone's property (Except the ones that were authorized for sale by Interplay).

I'm afraid that legally, they are the property of their owner, licensed however they want them to be. So although Minerva, may have been played by everyone, and given out freely to the Descent Community, Spaz still has the copyright. Thus he can tell us what we can and can't do with the levels he has made.

So far it is only Spaz who has stated his word on his levels, so other authors levels are fair game, PROVIDED you get the permission of their creators. A lot of people have created a lot of levels, and it's highly likely that many of the authors will give permission, if not do it themselves. It's just a case of contacting them.
I'm not entirely sure what the status of the levels who's authors have died is. I'm sure lawyers could argue about that one for days.

I am keen to avoid discouraging existing descent players. I think that the ramifications of a person creating and distributing someone elses level without or against the owners wishes, would discourage more people from joining than having that level would.

Last edited by sdfgeoff (2014-01-06 23:11:53)

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#39 2014-01-06 23:34:30

Do_Checkor
Beta Tester
From: Germany
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 156
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

There is no such thing as a copyright for levels. You need a patent (patent pending) for stuff like that. But it is a question of respect to NOT copy any mission without at LEAST asking the original author. If you can't reach them within a couple of weeks - _I_ would consider it alright to start working on it. I have seen many similar situations in the past where even D3 missions have been edited without even asking the original author and then been re-released. I would NEVER support anything like that. So this is where the argue ends:

Ask the original author (email and BB) before you start working on it. Usually you can find the contact details in the _so_called_ readme of the mission download or on the boards. Thanks sdfgeoff for the respect. And while I still understand DelCio's frustration: If there are no Autobahns anymore but Airways - the inventor of an Indian Motorcycle might not be happy about a highjacked ninja copy by third party.

Can't see a point to discuss or even argue on this.

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#40 2014-01-07 00:15:27

sdfgeoff
Beta Tester
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 102
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

There is no such thing as a copyright for levels. You need a patent (patent pending) for stuff like that.

I was under the impression that if you made something, you can licence it how you like without having to register it to anyone. (in other words, you have the copyright). You can license it freely, but you still have the copyright, and the final say in who does what with it.
Think about photos. They are under copyright, and don't have patent pending.

Or I could get called away by a crying baby to play "guess what's bothering me now", where contestants must correctly identify and correct the mystery sequence of problems and pains while enduring ear-splitting wails. It's a fun game. hmm

Crap. I was wrong again. Excuse me...

Enjoy it...

Last edited by sdfgeoff (2014-01-07 00:17:19)

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#41 2014-01-07 00:28:45

Do_Checkor
Beta Tester
From: Germany
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 156
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

sdfgeoff wrote:

There is no such thing as a copyright for levels. You need a patent (patent pending) for stuff like that.

I was under the impression that if you made something, you can licence it how you like without having to register it to anyone. (in other words, you have the copyright). You can license it freely, but you still have the copyright, and the final say in who does what with it.
Think about photos. They are under copyright, and don't have patent pending.

Well - if you post them on your own web site which is water proof - that is a WHOLE different thing than posting them on Facebook (or a community web site)... You understand where I am comming from...

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#42 2014-01-07 00:39:45

sdfgeoff
Beta Tester
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 102
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

Well - if you post them on your own web site which is water proof - that is a WHOLE different thing than posting them on Facebook (or a community web site)... You understand where I am comming from...

What you do with them does not impact who owns the copyright. Even if the author appears to give them away freely, he still has the copyright, and the right to tell you what you can/can't do with them.

But I do see what you are saying, and much of the time, I find copyright to be a real pain.

----------------------------------------------------
Browsing through pootermans descent archives, many of the .txt readme files say things like:

You may distribute this level as long as it is unmodified and
Intact. Please make sure you contact me before you use this level
,in whole or in part, as a basis or addon to your or any other level.

* Copyright / Permissions *

Authors may NOT use this level as a base to build additional
levels. 

You MAY distribute this level, provided you include this file, with
no modifications.  You may distribute this file in any electronic
format (BBS, Diskette, CD, etc) as long as you include this file
intact.

---Other---
You may distribute this level as long as every thing is INTACT and
UNMODIFIED. You MAY copy any part of this level. As long as you E-mail
me and send me a copy.

and so on.

A lot of these were before the days of creative commons, and in todays terms:
The first one is Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.
And second one: Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
The third one appears to also be the CC-BY-NC, but with the request to email the author the copy.


These are all the various licences these files are published under. And I shall stop arguing about copyright now.

Last edited by sdfgeoff (2014-01-07 00:51:15)

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#43 2014-01-07 00:48:00

Do_Checkor
Beta Tester
From: Germany
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 156
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

You are right there, sdfgeoff, if the author keeps in line with the format which is required and did not publish files on sites which would not conflict with their own license - while facebook is still a great example. Your own license does not mean anything there anymore. The same applied to PlanetDescent.com.

What I was giving a hit to was not "just fk it" but: The respect for the original author should always be honored above ANY personal opinion or idea or copyright or timespan. So: We're both in the same boat.

Link I was referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_ … ted_States

Last edited by Do_Checkor (2014-01-07 00:51:26)

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#44 2014-01-07 02:19:15

CommandoRash
Member
From: Clarksville, TN
Registered: 2013-11-12
Posts: 96

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

In all cases, it's definitely best to be respectful of others, especially considering a polite request to not modify one's creation.

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#45 2014-01-07 04:51:58

sdfgeoff
Beta Tester
Registered: 2013-09-27
Posts: 102
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

So: We're both in the same boat.

My apologies here, I forgot we were agreeing...

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#46 2014-01-07 09:22:55

Smaragdadler
Member
From: Thuringia
Registered: 2013-12-26
Posts: 42

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

I sympathize with all who respect the wishes of Spaz, copyrights or not.
But we all have to bear in mind that this discussion will get redundant anyway - at least at the point when Talon get's hot in China.

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#47 2014-01-07 17:05:50

Blarget2
Beta Tester
Registered: 2013-08-14
Posts: 25

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

I will just like to point out that people can remake my maps if they want tongue

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#48 2014-01-09 18:53:26

DelCio
Rookie Member
From: Tampa FL
Registered: 2014-01-04
Posts: 3
Website

Re: A touchy subject: Descent Maps

Take a sec and read this as this isn't a Spaz thing, it could be anyone that wants to recreate anyone's level. We all should understand regardless of feelings what the reality is.

First I do want to say that what I said - is fact, it wasn't heated or inflamed, and if anyone is offended by the truth the issue doesn't lie in this thread.

While some if the ideas about copyright laws this thread may have are interesting they are incorrect. Being a professional musician, anyone can, without my permission, cover a song I wrote and even go as far as to record and sell it. Now a portion of the proceeds would go to me, and every time it's played on the radio the royalty goes to me. Now one of the guys before went down the right path with incurring damages. The basis of any suit is damages. The question should be "what damages were incurred to spaz for user x recreating a similar version of his level". The answer to this is zero, the suit would be thrown out and spaz forced to pay the defendants legal fees.

This is a new issue for the entire gaming community. Lets stay on to of the facts, and most importantly remember we are here to have fun.
DelCio

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